Relieving Sleep Disorders: Nyree Penn’s Innovative Approach to Deep REM Sleep

[00:00:18] Well, well, we are here! Sleep Reimagined with Nyree Penn. Nyree, how are you feeling? Episode 1.

[00:00:28] I'm very well rested. Thank you for asking. I hope you are as well.

[00:00:33] Yes, I am. Alright, so Nyree, we are doing this show. We will go into more of the topic, but let's go back in time and tell me about your upbringing.

[00:00:44] Where were you born and, you know, born and raised? Did you always want to go into healthcare field? Either of your parents were in healthcare. Give us a little backstory.

[00:00:56] Yeah, okay, so I was born in Brooklyn, New York actually. But then, you know, I came here. My parents were born here when I was very young.

[00:01:04] So I grew up in Cold Springs, Florida. Literally right down the street. I've come full circle through the world.

[00:01:11] Back to where I started, but I absolutely love it. Where else you come back to home, right? So, but I'm very grateful to say, I think, because for me, I had a great childhood growing up. A unique childhood.

[00:01:24] I had, like, the kind of, my dad was at home and my mom worked. So, because that, my dad was the one who was really present, you know, most of the time for me with me and my brothers.

[00:01:36] And he was kind of our, you know, our day-to-day rock. So, I'm very, very close to my dad. And my mom is present, you know, don't get me wrong, but she's, she was a breadwinner, right?

[00:01:45] She was very hardworking and I definitely have her spirit. Throughout my life, she was always working and going to school.

[00:01:55] Working and going to school, like, she was a nurse and then she got her bachelor's degree in nursing while she was working full time.

[00:02:00] And then she went to anesthesia school. She did that full time. She graduated with CRNA. Then she got her PhD in nursing. And, like, the whole time she worked. You know, that's just my mom, period. Like, it's not.

[00:02:11] So, to have, you know, such great parents, such a determined mom and, you know, a stable foundation that my dad is, I'm super, super grateful that I come from a long generation of very well-educated women.

[00:02:25] I'm highly educated. My grandmother as well. My aunts, they were all in the nursing field.

[00:02:29] So, I think it was kind of in my blood. So, for me, you know, you know, there's just no question. You don't think, right, you are going into the medical field.

[00:02:40] So, I don't know if it was instilled or just naturally, you know, it was always just medicine has been instilled in me from since I was a child. Yeah.

[00:02:50] And when was the first time you thought that, you know, I'm going to go in healthcare too?

[00:02:57] So, because my mom was always working, I know I said, you work really, really hard. You know, I'm all about let's work smarter, not harder. Like, my mom worked her butt off as a nurse, right?

[00:03:09] So, I have tremendous respect for them. But I didn't want to figure something else out. So, you know, I definitely looked into like EA school and then ultimately, you know, medical school.

[00:03:20] You know, I kind of, that was my goal when I went to school. So, I always did like pre-med classes and, you know, I was very, very focused on going to medical school.

[00:03:28] So, yeah, that was my goal to go to medical school for sure.

[00:03:33] Wonderful. And what inspired you to dive deep into the world of sleep medicine? And then, of course, start prosomnia sleep afterward. Tell me about that.

[00:03:46] So, I went to, I eventually went to anesthesia school. And so, I'm an AA, like a physician assistant anesthesia, right?

[00:03:55] So, logged in. I got my master's degree in health science and a certified anesthesia office assistant.

[00:04:01] I graduated in 2009 from Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale.

[00:04:06] So, that's the same year Michael Jackson passed away. So, it had a tremendous impact on, you know, our class.

[00:04:14] And so, from an anesthetic perspective, we got to dive deep a little bit into how does anesthesia, sleep, and propofol go together, right?

[00:04:25] So, that was kind of always been in the back of my mind, especially since we use it every single day in anesthesia.

[00:04:32] As, you know, it's a very, very prominent, well-used drug.

[00:04:37] So, you know, when he passed, you know, because of his celebrity status and everything, I don't think anyone went back and thought about, like, he had chronic insomnia and somebody using anesthesia to put him to sleep.

[00:04:50] Like, you know, his celebrity status. I think people just assumed, oh, of course it's Michael Jackson. Of course he can't sleep at night.

[00:04:57] But, you know, I went back and did some research. I looked at his autopsy report. Like, he had diagnosed, like, chronic insomnia.

[00:05:07] So, you know, through the years, I just, you know, would kind of read up on it and study it and read up on it, like, and try to just establish the connection between anesthesia and sleep.

[00:05:15] So, through the years, I was like, oh, you know, this is real. Like, nobody's talking about this.

[00:05:22] There is a real connection and the opportunity to really use this in the proper way because he died because there was not any, you know, there wasn't a facility.

[00:05:34] Nobody was doing this. Nobody even heard of anesthesia and sleep.

[00:05:37] They, they'd never even established a protocol for this, right?

[00:05:42] So, you know, as time went on, you know, I started looking, like, I think, I think we can do this.

[00:05:47] This is legitimately something we could do.

[00:05:50] So, just, I remember just working, you know, throughout my career.

[00:05:54] I remember this one particular patient.

[00:05:56] I used my patient earlier in the day and I remember he, you know, I went, I was going home later in the day and he was in the parking lot.

[00:06:03] And he's like, hey, you know, I remember you.

[00:06:05] And I was like, oh, you know, I thought, you know, oh, are you okay?

[00:06:07] Is everything good?

[00:06:08] And he's like, I just had a question where he's like, that's the best sleep I've ever had in my life.

[00:06:14] I'm like, of course, you know, this is what we do.

[00:06:16] Okay.

[00:06:17] Thank you.

[00:06:17] You're welcome.

[00:06:18] And so, but I don't have a problem sleeping, right?

[00:06:22] Until I started something.

[00:06:23] But I didn't have a problem sleeping.

[00:06:25] So, I didn't even understand, I knew, like, logically and what I've read and research-wise.

[00:06:29] But when you meet someone who is desperate, not to sleep, but to rest, and you know you have the training and the skills and the knowledge to make that happen.

[00:06:42] I had to say something.

[00:06:43] Like, I had to do something.

[00:06:45] I had to at least, you know, study it or figure out, like, what is this?

[00:06:49] What is happening?

[00:06:49] What this made it?

[00:06:51] How desperate do you have to be to wait for somebody to come to your house to do something?

[00:06:56] Like, of course, I didn't do it, but it just really resonated with me because I was like, this is real.

[00:07:02] And I just felt like it was my responsibility to research that and figure that out.

[00:07:08] And kind of, is this something that's happening all over the place?

[00:07:12] So, it was never insomnia or sleep itself, which is kind of transformed into this discovery that we can help at this magnitude.

[00:07:20] It's just incredible.

[00:07:22] And I'm actually truly grateful because I do believe this is my purpose in life.

[00:07:27] I really do.

[00:07:29] Wow.

[00:07:30] That's a, I didn't expect that the origin of this started with Michael Jackson.

[00:07:36] Yeah.

[00:07:37] That's a great story.

[00:07:38] And now more towards, I guess, the more important question is what do you think sleep, you know, especially why do you think sleep disorders, especially insomnia, have become so prevalent in today's society?

[00:07:55] Like, why, you know, all of a sudden, I just hear it too much about it.

[00:07:59] It wasn't like we were not hearing about it previously or is it like it always existed?

[00:08:04] What's your take on that?

[00:08:06] Everything you just said.

[00:08:07] It's always been there.

[00:08:10] Sleep is seen as a weakness.

[00:08:12] There's such sleep shame in our society about sleep that it's just easily to avoid, right?

[00:08:19] And there's consequences associated with it.

[00:08:21] It's like if you're caught sleeping at work, you know, you're going to get written up.

[00:08:24] You know, if a kid is caught sleeping in school, he's going to get into detention.

[00:08:27] Like, what is that?

[00:08:28] Where did that come from?

[00:08:30] There's, it's just seen as a weakness that you're tired.

[00:08:33] Are we supposed to be these relentless robots who keep on going throughout the day and our mind and our bodies aren't supposed to rest?

[00:08:39] And, you know, and anything we do in excess comes at the sacrifice of sleep, right?

[00:08:45] It's like, oh, I got to work harder.

[00:08:46] I got to work longer.

[00:08:47] You know, I'll just sleep, you know, six, five, four.

[00:08:50] Then, okay, I'll just get one hour of sleep.

[00:08:52] I'll close my eyes and I'll go back to sleep.

[00:08:53] No, that's not, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's where we are.

[00:08:58] That's why sleep disorders have become so common.

[00:09:01] And not just in our society globally, like the global market in sleep is, is over $530 billion.

[00:09:10] There's billions of people who cannot sleep.

[00:09:13] So it's, it's, I think worldwide sleep is seen as a weakness.

[00:09:18] The penalty for fatigue is just on a corporate level.

[00:09:21] Like, I don't want to mean industries, but the same industries that impose insomnia are the same industries that will utilize you for needing rest or having sleep related incidents.

[00:09:36] Same thing, you know, some industries, if you have insomnia or sleep apnea, you can't work.

[00:09:43] So, like, what, what is, you know, and then, but another thing, this week, as a matter of fact, is drowsy driving prevention week.

[00:09:55] Why?

[00:09:55] Why is that a thing, right?

[00:09:57] Why do we need to bring public awareness?

[00:10:00] Because it is a thing.

[00:10:01] This is a problem that nobody wants to talk about.

[00:10:04] We've got to start talking about people getting sleep and rest and relieve the shame and disgrace that's associated with sleep and productivity.

[00:10:15] Stress and mental health, it's real, but nobody wants to talk about how to fix it.

[00:10:21] Yeah.

[00:10:22] And I guess what are the most common misconceptions about sleep?

[00:10:29] Would you like to address in, in the series?

[00:10:33] Of course.

[00:10:34] Yeah.

[00:10:35] Well, there's a lot of, I'm reluctant to say misconceptions because as I, you know, talk to people, it's, there's no, we're not taught how to sleep.

[00:10:47] Nobody's taught proper sleep hygiene.

[00:10:49] So just to teach the education of sleep alone is a, is a podcast in itself, right?

[00:10:56] You know, just, you know, the, the misconception that, you know, everyone sleeps, but not everybody runs.

[00:11:01] That's one of the biggest things.

[00:11:03] You know, it's like, just because you lay down at night does not mean you're resting.

[00:11:07] And then just to get people to understand what sleep is, why we sleep.

[00:11:13] And the two types of sleeps that we have, we actually have two types of sleep.

[00:11:16] One for our body and one for our mind.

[00:11:18] And those are, I believe, correlated with non-REM sleep and REM sleep.

[00:11:22] Non-rapid eye movement is non-REM and REM sleep is rapid eye movement.

[00:11:29] And based on those stages is where we can kind of gauge where your mind and your body is in their stage of rest.

[00:11:38] But that's an education in itself, right?

[00:11:41] And just getting people to understand the REM, non-REM.

[00:11:44] And that our rest is cyclic.

[00:11:45] It goes, we have five to seven cycles throughout the night.

[00:11:48] We're not just all in REM for three hours and we're all in, it's just, it's a constant cycle.

[00:11:53] And I believe it's just a constant cycle of connecting and reconnecting our bodies with our mind throughout the night.

[00:11:59] So each one can rest, you know, accordingly.

[00:12:02] And that's why they said it takes eight to seven hours to rest because it takes, depending on what our lifestyle is like, it's going to take a while.

[00:12:09] So, you know, just getting people to understand what sleep is.

[00:12:13] And I think having society get educated about the importance of sleep and the secondary ramifications of not getting proper rest.

[00:12:23] I think when those just key aspects come into play, we will have a better understanding.

[00:12:30] It's just maybe just a lack of understanding of what sleep is and the importance of it.

[00:12:35] So when people talk about this, like deep sleep, when we say like within, you know, that durations during the night, is that what you will call like the real rested sleep at that moment?

[00:12:47] Is that what it is?

[00:12:49] So each stage, so essentially we have five stages of rest, right?

[00:12:52] Or sleep.

[00:12:53] Let me say five stages of rest.

[00:12:55] So four of those five are non-rems.

[00:12:58] So non-rems, one, two, three, four, or really zero, one, two, three.

[00:13:02] So non-rem, and they kind of go in order.

[00:13:04] Like to the most non-rem, you're most awake, right?

[00:13:07] So you're awake.

[00:13:08] This is when you're kind of nodding off at the desk as we work.

[00:13:11] That's like non-rem one.

[00:13:14] Non-rem like three is like being drunk at the bar.

[00:13:18] Right?

[00:13:19] It is kind of being a slur in your speech.

[00:13:21] You're not actually coherent.

[00:13:22] So, you know, and then you're deaf and then you get to REM sleep.

[00:13:26] And REM sleep is the only place for your mind to rest.

[00:13:29] First, I am saying this as an angry pen founder and CEO of Presumably Sleep.

[00:13:34] I don't know that you will or will not find actual back research on this.

[00:13:40] I am saying this knowing what I know, developing what I have developed.

[00:13:45] Non, your mind can only rest in non-rem sleep.

[00:13:49] However, in your other stages of sleep, there are certain different areas in your mind that

[00:13:56] are resting as well as your brain.

[00:13:58] So all that requires a lot of understanding.

[00:14:01] But we weren't taught this in school, right?

[00:14:03] So it's not like anybody's going to just hop on and try to understand the importance of

[00:14:09] sleep and non-rem sleep.

[00:14:11] And, you know, so one is not better than the other.

[00:14:13] They all have to work together.

[00:14:15] And when I spoke about your body resting and your mind resting, I was referring to the

[00:14:20] circadian.

[00:14:21] So that circadian rhythm that you may, you know, kind of hear about all the time.

[00:14:25] That's our body.

[00:14:26] That follows the cycle of the sun.

[00:14:30] So we, as you, actually every organism on earth sleeps or rests in some capacity.

[00:14:37] So it's not just a human thing.

[00:14:39] All life forms on earth absolutely need to rest.

[00:14:42] And most life forms on earth also follow the sun, the circadian rhythm.

[00:14:48] And, you know, it's Latin for around the day, around the sun, so circadian.

[00:14:53] So that's where that comes from.

[00:14:54] So with that, our bodies respond to that.

[00:14:59] Our eyes elicit a chemical response when we see the light from the sun.

[00:15:04] When the light from the sun enters our eyes, it targets certain areas in our brain.

[00:15:09] And that also decreases the amount of melatonin.

[00:15:13] Melatonin is a key word in sleep, right?

[00:15:14] To make people sleepy.

[00:15:16] So you have to have low melatonin in the day and high melatonin in the day.

[00:15:19] And so that's why sometimes supplement, people supplement melatonin in the day.

[00:15:25] But again, remember, I'm saying this is applicable to our bodies.

[00:15:30] Okay.

[00:15:31] Okay.

[00:15:31] So then the other part of it is our mind rest.

[00:15:34] And it's called homeostatic sleep pressure or process S.

[00:15:38] And that's when our minds get a buildup of adenosine throughout the day.

[00:15:44] Our mind thinks when you're at school or when you're working a lot, you know, it's like,

[00:15:48] oh my God, I've been close my eyes.

[00:15:49] Oh my God, I've been thinking all day long.

[00:15:51] I sneak close my eyes.

[00:15:52] That's the breakdown of ATP.

[00:15:55] So when the energy that your mind uses breaks down, it breaks down into adenosine.

[00:16:00] Okay.

[00:16:00] It's that adenosine sleep pressure that makes us sleepy.

[00:16:04] So the more you think, the more your mind uses energy, the sleepier you're going to be.

[00:16:09] However, we have not until now been able to find a way to relieve your mind to rest.

[00:16:17] Our current supplements and medication focus on your body, letting you melt the melatonin,

[00:16:22] the pharmaceuticals, the cognitive behavioral therapy.

[00:16:25] That's all external.

[00:16:27] Those are all external factors that we use to rest our bodies.

[00:16:32] Until now, there's not ever been anything to rest our mind until prosomnia sleep therapy.

[00:16:38] And so that's why we're in such a unique position, because we have been able to find a targeted way

[00:16:44] to allow your mind to just rest.

[00:16:49] So when people take this, you know, supplements or melatonin in the night, and I mean, I have seen people fall asleep,

[00:16:58] but does that mean they're still not like, the mind is still not free?

[00:17:03] And it's just more of a physical thing that they fall asleep?

[00:17:07] Is that the correct way to think about it?

[00:17:09] So it's important.

[00:17:11] The only way your mind can rest, that adenosine that I was speaking about, your mind resting, it needs to release that, right?

[00:17:19] Because it's just, I got to get this out so it can go into your body, recycle, recharge and regenerate.

[00:17:24] It does that somewhere else.

[00:17:25] But your mind is a closed environment.

[00:17:28] So it's a closed system.

[00:17:30] So in order for your body to be, you're almost like an avatar in REM sleep.

[00:17:35] Like it's, you got to allow your body to disconnect from your mind and rest.

[00:17:39] The only time that can happen is REM sleep.

[00:17:42] The only time that adenosine is released out of your brain is during REM sleep.

[00:17:48] And so, yes, just because you go to sleep and you're taking melatonin and you're sleepy and other areas,

[00:17:55] you're just like, okay, how many times have you or someone you know taken melatonin, but they still aren't rested?

[00:18:02] They're still groggy.

[00:18:03] They're just like, oh my God, like it's this lethargic, like, oh my God, because their minds aren't rested.

[00:18:08] They went to sleep, they laid down, but their mind, they're still, and they may, you know, two or three, put them to sleep,

[00:18:15] but their mind is still not rested, restorative, rejuvenated type of rest that they need to function.

[00:18:24] Yeah.

[00:18:25] So it is.

[00:18:26] Can you break down what makes, you know, prosomnia sleep therapy unique compared to traditional sleep treatments,

[00:18:35] like complete, like, so a layman can understand?

[00:18:39] Sure.

[00:18:40] So that's in reference to what I was saying about the adenosine sleep pressure, that buildup of that neuro.

[00:18:47] It's a neurotransmitter, actually.

[00:18:48] It's an actual, it's a chemical all throughout your brain.

[00:18:51] It's not just, you know, exclusive to, but we have found that that is the neurotransmitter specifically related to allowing your mind to rest.

[00:19:01] So we have to release that specific adenosine out of your brain.

[00:19:05] And the way that we do it, you have to get into a deep, deep sleep, which most people aren't able to do it naturally.

[00:19:12] Right.

[00:19:12] And, you know, not saying that it can't be done, but naturally there's some issue in someone's life that suffers from insomnia or some sleep, you know, disorder.

[00:19:23] Why they can't naturally get into REM sleep.

[00:19:26] And that's how we use anesthesia to get them into that deep, deep REM sleep state.

[00:19:32] And that's why it's important that training anesthesia professionals do this, because we know how to use that medication and we know how to handle the person because of the side effects.

[00:19:45] So, you know, if you go into research, you'll hear the side effects of propofol maybe like people stop breathing.

[00:19:50] And actually that's what happened with Michael Jackson.

[00:19:53] When it was used improperly, Michael Jackson stopped breathing.

[00:19:58] So you have to have a trained airway professional such as anesthesia providers that know how to help people breathe while they're, you know, under the influence of this drug.

[00:20:12] Right.

[00:20:12] So to circle back.

[00:20:14] So when we do our post-sognitive sleep therapy, we put people into that deep REM sleep state with our anesthesia and they have their own personalized sleep suite.

[00:20:27] It'd be just like this.

[00:20:28] Like I'd be sitting here watching, you know, like literally your monitors, make sure you're breathing, your oxygen, your separation, your, your blood pressure and your, your, we use an EEG monitor to measure your brain waves.

[00:20:41] And that's how we can say that you're definitely in your REM sleep because we know what to look for on that EEG monitor.

[00:20:51] So that's what makes us unique.

[00:20:53] So we have Prosomni sleep sessions.

[00:20:56] And so they are one hour sleep sessions.

[00:20:58] People actually come in, you would come in, you have your own personalized sleep suite.

[00:21:03] It's about 300 square feet.

[00:21:04] Very comfortable.

[00:21:06] Make sure you're warm and it smells good.

[00:21:09] And we have nice lighting and a blanket and a neck roll.

[00:21:13] And it's however you want.

[00:21:14] We set the environment for you to have a rested, restorative sleep.

[00:21:19] And then we start the infusion.

[00:21:22] And so with the infusion, I'm there with you the entire time watching you, monitoring you.

[00:21:27] We also have a recording.

[00:21:29] I point like this way because it's on the wall, but we record all of our sleep sessions.

[00:21:34] So at any time, you know, those are, those are for your safety and ours.

[00:21:38] So at any time, everything is recorded at all times.

[00:21:41] And we literally infuse you until we watch your brain monitors.

[00:21:46] There's, there's a certain target to when we know that you've had enough risks.

[00:21:51] And so, and that's why we can't necessarily say no one knows how, you know, sleep deprived

[00:21:57] they are when they walk in.

[00:21:59] So I won't know until after the sleep session.

[00:22:02] So although I say, you know, sleep sessions are an hour, it may be two hours.

[00:22:08] I don't know how much sleep you need, but we do grant people that opportunity to stay

[00:22:13] until we know that they're fully rested and restored.

[00:22:18] And how does that work?

[00:22:19] Like, is it more like a reading that you're able to assess and then say like this much

[00:22:25] sleep they need or this much sleep they are deprived of?

[00:22:28] How does that work?

[00:22:29] That specific part is like a scale that you follow.

[00:22:32] Yeah.

[00:22:33] So as we infuse, we infuse them to a particular level, right?

[00:22:38] And we know that they're at that level because of the brain waves that you show me on that

[00:22:43] EEG monitor.

[00:22:44] So when we see those EEG monitors, we're like, okay, he's there.

[00:22:48] We're just going to keep him here for a little bit, see how he does.

[00:22:50] And then, you know, we're, we're, we're going to turn off our anesthesia, but your body

[00:22:56] does all the work after that.

[00:22:58] Because remember what I said, we just, we just have to get you there.

[00:23:00] We use the anesthesia to get you there, but think of it like a, like a door, right?

[00:23:05] As soon as we open that door to your mind and it can release that adenosine and let all

[00:23:10] that stuff out, you don't need our purple ball anymore.

[00:23:12] So we can turn it off.

[00:23:13] We just sit there and watch you sleep.

[00:23:15] Right?

[00:23:16] And so to say it's a one hour sleep session.

[00:23:19] Yeah.

[00:23:19] Within an hour is our actual procedure, you know, getting you in there, starting infusion,

[00:23:24] I don't know.

[00:23:26] But I would say another hour is just you getting the rest that you need.

[00:23:29] And that's your body doing all the work.

[00:23:35] And so that's the, I think that's the beauty and that's the discovery in prosomnia sleep

[00:23:39] therapy is that I developed a protocol to where, you know, we can bring people in, get them

[00:23:45] to this level of sleep and just let their, their mind and their body do all the work.

[00:23:48] And based on, you know, we continue to monitor you throughout.

[00:23:52] And after, you know, after you wake up, because you wake up completely independent on your own.

[00:23:57] Right?

[00:23:58] We don't do anything else.

[00:23:59] We just sit there.

[00:24:00] There's been, we have people who wake up after 15 minutes after we stop our infusion

[00:24:06] to 47 minutes has been our patient who slept the longest.

[00:24:10] And that was actually a person who had real REM sleep disorders.

[00:24:14] And that's how we can then decipher and diagnose people.

[00:24:17] You have sleep depression, you have chronic insomnia, you have a REM sleep disorder, you

[00:24:21] know, you, you know, then we will, you know, follow up with whatever, you know, other procedures

[00:24:28] we may need to.

[00:24:30] So it's not like a one and done.

[00:24:31] It's like, we're going to do sleep therapy, but then we're going to find out what is going

[00:24:36] on with you.

[00:24:37] Why are you sleeping?

[00:24:38] Everyone sleeps and not everybody rests.

[00:24:40] Why aren't you resting?

[00:24:41] What's going on?

[00:24:42] Everyone will have a sleep story in their life.

[00:24:44] It is our job to help you figure out to get rested restorative sleep.

[00:24:52] So the procedure is one hour.

[00:24:54] And then afterwards, they don't have to sleep a lot.

[00:24:57] It's just basically, like you say, the maximum patient slept was like 47 minutes you have

[00:25:02] seen right now.

[00:25:03] So it's not like after the one procedure, you don't have to like sleep for another four

[00:25:07] hours.

[00:25:07] It can get done pretty quickly.

[00:25:08] That's how that works.

[00:25:10] Yeah.

[00:25:11] Yeah.

[00:25:11] So, but again, it depends.

[00:25:14] Like, I don't know this.

[00:25:15] A lot of people, you know, well, am I this?

[00:25:17] Am I that?

[00:25:18] Like, we have to have you have a sleep session.

[00:25:22] Like, your sleep session is very indicative in itself.

[00:25:25] And we will gather that data.

[00:25:28] And then we will assess that data.

[00:25:30] And then based on your data, we can be like, okay.

[00:25:33] In each level, like I said, remember, there's four or five levels.

[00:25:36] It's not like sometimes once we turn off the anesthesia, some people may or may not stay

[00:25:45] in REM sleep.

[00:25:46] Some people may just go to that N3 deep REM sleep, right?

[00:25:50] That's a different area in the brain.

[00:25:52] But if that's the case, that's fine.

[00:25:53] It's like, okay, you stayed in this area this amount of time.

[00:25:58] So that must mean, and then we can start targeting what's going on in your life.

[00:26:03] Because every area in your brain, you know, is indicating something else different going

[00:26:07] on with you.

[00:26:09] So, you know, certain areas, especially with medications, certain medications target different

[00:26:15] areas of your brain.

[00:26:16] So when you have your sleep session, we can be like, oh, let's start looking at this medication.

[00:26:22] This medication seemingly isn't letting you get into REM sleep.

[00:26:26] Let's start doing some medication management with your other providers and see if we can,

[00:26:32] you know, change that, calibrate it, you know, just figure out how we can get you rest and

[00:26:39] stay on your medication for your other, you know, issues.

[00:26:44] Well, it's, so I guess what are some quick actionable insights you would share with our listeners

[00:26:54] struggling with sleepless nights?

[00:26:56] Are there certain things that they can do to improve their sleep?

[00:27:01] Absolutely.

[00:27:02] So what I'm very, very happy to say about Post-Somni sleep is that we are the only sleep

[00:27:10] center in the world offering a Post-Somni sleep REM sleep therapy.

[00:27:14] But we do offer, you know, other sleep services.

[00:27:17] It's not like, you know, everybody doesn't want to come to us for anesthesia.

[00:27:19] And we recognize that.

[00:27:21] But we are a full comprehensive sleep center.

[00:27:24] We help people with insomnia.

[00:27:26] And another one I'm bringing up is sleep insomnia.

[00:27:28] I mean, I'm sorry, obstructive sleep apnea, right?

[00:27:31] So we often get times when we have patients who have obstructive sleep apnea.

[00:27:36] That is a contraindication for Post-Somni sleep therapy without the use of some sort of device.

[00:27:43] However, you don't necessarily know that you have obstructive sleep apnea.

[00:27:47] And it happens a lot of times.

[00:27:48] People know that they snore in their sleep, but not recognizing that as anything else.

[00:27:53] Another secondary effect is people don't realize.

[00:27:56] Another misconception maybe is that people who have high blood pressure, diabetes, or heart

[00:28:02] disease, they just think it's genetic.

[00:28:05] They don't realize that this is actually could be the secondary effects of sleep apnea.

[00:28:10] You know, so we have to get educated.

[00:28:12] And even as healthcare professionals, we aren't fully trained on sleep and what to look for in sleep disparities.

[00:28:21] People just know they can't sleep.

[00:28:22] So what do you do?

[00:28:23] Okay, here's a medication.

[00:28:24] Here's some, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy.

[00:28:27] Here's something else to solve these symptoms.

[00:28:30] But what are the root causes?

[00:28:32] And that's what we do.

[00:28:33] So we initially, when people first come to us, we, the very first thing we tell them is to try to get on a consistency schedule.

[00:28:42] Consistency is the key.

[00:28:43] You've got to allow your mind and your body permission to rest at what time.

[00:28:49] This, this is another thing, you know, in our society, people are up 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you know, especially night shift workers.

[00:28:56] Not a problem.

[00:28:57] Not like you're going to stop working, but we've got to figure out a schedule for your body and your mind to implement a habit of sleeping.

[00:29:05] To let your body know if you need, if that needs to be 3 p.m. when everybody else is out, then that's what needs to be.

[00:29:11] But we've got to establish a consistent sleep schedule.

[00:29:14] That's the very first thing we tell people.

[00:29:17] And then that will allow, you know, that will allow us to then further discuss what is the issue.

[00:29:26] So then we tell, we ask them to go take the sleep quiz.

[00:29:30] Write down pressomniosleep.com.

[00:29:32] Take the sleep quiz.

[00:29:34] Our, our, our, excuse me.

[00:29:36] Our questions are very strategically designed to help us identify certain sleep disparities.

[00:29:42] So then when you can even, wow, I didn't even realize I only sleep, you know, four hours.

[00:29:49] I didn't realize I'm up eight times a night.

[00:29:52] I didn't realize that I go to the bathroom.

[00:29:54] You know, so sometimes just these little things that we think are common.

[00:29:58] Oh, I didn't realize it's not normal to have daytime sleepiness all the time.

[00:30:03] Right?

[00:30:03] That's not, but we don't, we're just part of society.

[00:30:06] Right?

[00:30:06] I just figured because I only sleep three hours a night because I have to work and have a light.

[00:30:13] That's not normal.

[00:30:14] So we then tell them to take a sleep quiz.

[00:30:17] Then we ask them at the end of our sleep quiz is, do you feel like after you've answered these questions that you need to have a consultant speak to you?

[00:30:26] A member of our dream team speak to you about what's really going on.

[00:30:30] You may have identified things that you weren't aware of.

[00:30:32] We're there to help people with that.

[00:30:34] And even if you don't, everyone can optimize their sleep.

[00:30:38] It's not like you have to have something going on to optimize healthy sleep.

[00:30:42] That's why we're called health and wellness.

[00:30:45] You know, you don't have to have a problem to optimize your sleep hygiene.

[00:30:49] I promise you, everyone can do better with their sleep hygiene.

[00:30:54] So, you know, we try to take those strategic steps initially.

[00:30:58] I guess this begs the question that, like, despite, you know, you said, like, you know, the sun and this has this inside, it's a chemical reaction.

[00:31:08] And this is why we probably sleep at night versus the daytime.

[00:31:12] But despite that, still everyone's body is different.

[00:31:16] Absolutely.

[00:31:16] There's a block to that.

[00:31:18] So, and if that's the case, like, it kind of challenges everything in our reality, right?

[00:31:25] Like, you can't just have this office hours time then for everyone.

[00:31:30] This is when you're, it's just, are you challenging that kind of norms with sleep?

[00:31:35] 1,000%.

[00:31:36] Part of our corporate program is that we implement the prototype test.

[00:31:42] Chronotype your employees, especially when, you know, like the hospital, there's 24-hour shifts.

[00:31:48] Drivers, 24-hour pilots, 24-hour shifts.

[00:31:50] In those type of shifts, where are your employees most productive?

[00:31:54] You know, there's, you know, some people perform better in the day.

[00:31:57] Some people perform better in the night.

[00:31:58] Some people don't, you know, can perform.

[00:32:00] Find out who those employees are and place them strategically throughout the schedule.

[00:32:04] So, if that means they're more productive in the day, that means that they probably go to bed later at night.

[00:32:10] You know, they need to be off of work earlier.

[00:32:12] They need to, they just shift schedules.

[00:32:15] It's not anything to do.

[00:32:16] Just figure out where your employees perform better.

[00:32:19] There's your three to 11 people.

[00:32:21] There's people working three to 11.

[00:32:22] That's their thing.

[00:32:23] You know, that means that, that means they need to sleep later in the day.

[00:32:27] They probably sleep before their shifts.

[00:32:29] Allow them to do that.

[00:32:30] And let us help design a program for them that they, a sleep schedule that they can use at home.

[00:32:35] And what to do at work.

[00:32:36] To help them calm down and, and wind down towards the end of their shift.

[00:32:40] So, when they go home, they're not still tossing a train, turning, turning.

[00:32:44] So, now they have to come back to the clock.

[00:32:46] Right?

[00:32:46] The sun is up, but they're not.

[00:32:48] But we're going to help them kind of establish that habit.

[00:32:52] Establish that program to get them on a healthy sleep schedule.

[00:32:57] Okay.

[00:32:58] So, what are the first signs that indicate that someone should seek professional help coming to, you know, folks like you in our, or like they have sleep problems?

[00:33:10] Like I said, one of the biggest ones that we hear is daytime sleepiness.

[00:33:14] I'm always sleepy.

[00:33:15] Again, it's a question in the questionnaire.

[00:33:17] That's not normal.

[00:33:18] A fully rested mind and body should not be sleepy.

[00:33:21] Right?

[00:33:21] Like, remember, I told you, like your brain.

[00:33:24] If that adenosine has gone and it's released and it's out of your mind, you shouldn't be sleepy.

[00:33:28] You shouldn't have that sleep pressure.

[00:33:30] So, that's usually one of the main, and even if it's not, you know, an issue, some people, so there's a difference between chronic insomnia and sleep deprivation.

[00:33:39] Chronic insomnia is just, you just constantly cannot sleep.

[00:33:44] Like, you're constantly up, you're down, you're up and down throughout the night.

[00:33:47] So, that's, but sleep deprivation is like, you don't necessarily have a problem sleeping.

[00:33:52] You just don't have the time to sleep.

[00:33:55] Right?

[00:33:55] And those are usually the shift workers.

[00:33:57] So, they have more of a sleep deprivation.

[00:34:00] We need to get them to a point where they have the time at home to rest.

[00:34:06] You know, their shift is over.

[00:34:08] Truckers, that's another one.

[00:34:09] Truck drivers.

[00:34:10] You know, they sleep in all kinds of different places.

[00:34:12] So, just because they stop their truck and they're off their shift doesn't mean all of a sudden they're going to lay down and get some rest.

[00:34:17] That doesn't always happen.

[00:34:19] So, daytime sleepiness is another one.

[00:34:23] So, just because they stop moving doesn't mean they're getting the rest.

[00:34:26] So, we try to address that.

[00:34:28] Falling asleep.

[00:34:29] You know, naps.

[00:34:30] We love naps.

[00:34:31] I'm getting a, I want to get a t-shirt.

[00:34:33] I love naps.

[00:34:34] One thousand percent.

[00:34:35] However, naps on a consistent basis is a cause for concern.

[00:34:40] You know, some people get up early and work out.

[00:34:43] Like, sometimes in the middle of the day, they get, you know, they had a super, super hard workout.

[00:34:47] Warning, they need a nap.

[00:34:48] Got it.

[00:34:49] But a nap every single day is not.

[00:34:52] That's not.

[00:34:54] But, again, it may be.

[00:34:56] Maybe they do have a type of chronotype where they need naps.

[00:34:58] They're functioning for like three or four hours.

[00:35:01] But then they got it down.

[00:35:03] Let's identify.

[00:35:03] Right?

[00:35:05] So, that's one of the other signs.

[00:35:07] Constant naps.

[00:35:08] Mood swings and irritability.

[00:35:09] That's the secondary effect of poor sleep.

[00:35:12] Impaired cognitive function.

[00:35:14] Poor sleep.

[00:35:15] You know, so, those heart attacks.

[00:35:18] Diabetes.

[00:35:19] Heart disease.

[00:35:19] We look at those things.

[00:35:20] We look at your sleep.

[00:35:22] You know, why do you have diabetes at 40-something years old?

[00:35:26] Why are you hypertensive and on high blood pressure medication?

[00:35:29] And, again, in our medical field, those are secondary.

[00:35:33] Those would be secondary effects of poor sleep.

[00:35:36] We don't really take the time to look at that.

[00:35:38] We're just like, okay, you have high blood pressure.

[00:35:40] Here's a prescription.

[00:35:41] This is what we're going to do.

[00:35:43] So, it is our job.

[00:35:44] I feel like at Presumnius Sleep, just start getting society, medical organizations, people, individuals to recognize the secondary effects of poor sleep.

[00:35:56] Mental health symptoms, depression, anxiety.

[00:35:59] That's another.

[00:36:00] Constant illnesses.

[00:36:02] We're the ones who always sick, always has a cold, poor, a weakened immune system, as a prime example.

[00:36:08] We just keep going down the list.

[00:36:10] You know what I mean?

[00:36:11] So, you know, and then these stimulants, you know, those are big in our society.

[00:36:16] I'm guilty of it as well.

[00:36:18] But, you know, let's not, let's reschedule.

[00:36:20] I'm definitely not going to stop drinking mine.

[00:36:22] But maybe not so.

[00:36:23] I know for me, I cannot drink any, any type of caffeine after three.

[00:36:27] I can, I will not sleep that night.

[00:36:29] You know, and it's important to understand that.

[00:36:32] Maybe you're one of those people who can drink coffee all night long.

[00:36:35] I'm not.

[00:36:36] But those are cognitive, you know, conscious things that we can do to recognize, oh, this is why I'm not sleeping tonight.

[00:36:42] So really, like, this is where it gets mysterious in a way that each body behaves differently.

[00:36:49] Right.

[00:36:49] And you don't know what impacts your, the things that you consume to the environment you are at.

[00:36:55] And everything plays a role in your sleep.

[00:36:57] Absolutely.

[00:36:57] And no wonder it's a complex problem to solve.

[00:37:00] Right, right.

[00:37:01] And then what?

[00:37:03] Who do you go to?

[00:37:03] Who are you supposed to talk to?

[00:37:05] Well, you know, the sleep profession is small.

[00:37:08] However, we're out here and it's our job to get this responsibility out and get people to understand that this is a real, it's definitely a real problem.

[00:37:19] So I guess this has been great.

[00:37:21] But to end the first episode, I have this question.

[00:37:25] And while you have been on this journey of what, you know, what's the most surprising thing you have learned about yourself on this journey as a sleep health innovator.

[00:37:40] Tell me about that.

[00:37:41] Wow.

[00:37:45] That's a great question.

[00:37:46] So I, I didn't, I didn't know what I didn't know, you know, when I started this.

[00:37:52] Initially, my background is purely science, research and anesthesia.

[00:37:58] To bring sleep into the field, just like everyone else.

[00:38:02] At no point in my life that I wake up and said, I want to open a sleep center.

[00:38:05] Like, no, it's definitely not how it happened.

[00:38:08] I'm very grateful to have been chosen for this path and this trajectory because I do believe my life in hindsight has prepared me for this.

[00:38:18] Which, you know, it's just another true testament of the divine.

[00:38:23] But it has taught me the power of empathy and connection.

[00:38:28] And I've always feel like I've been an empathetic, especially being in the medical field.

[00:38:33] It's just one of the mandatory skills that you have to have.

[00:38:36] And to be able to connect with people when you're, when you're not physically well, it affects you spiritually, mentally, emotionally and psychologically.

[00:38:45] Right.

[00:38:45] Right. So to have that connection and just to dive deep into what, you know, how sleep affects people, I think is what really surprised me the most about myself.

[00:38:58] And, you know, this journey was that.

[00:39:03] You know, I don't I'm you know, forget it.

[00:39:04] I don't care how people take this.

[00:39:06] This is what I've seen.

[00:39:07] There is a real connection between sleep and the spirit.

[00:39:11] You know, when I say your mind and your body are fully connected, your mind and your body have to be fully connected for your spirit to be in balance.

[00:39:19] And that's the only way I can say it.

[00:39:20] I've seen that sometimes sleep sessions are very emotional sessions for people, not just because they've finally been able to rest like that gentleman that encountered me.

[00:39:30] And the patient I had, it was just what has been going through in their mind.

[00:39:37] I see this a lot with our PTSD patients.

[00:39:39] It's almost like a release and they experience it in their sleep.

[00:39:43] So what they go through home, I'm almost grateful to say that I'm able to, you know, kind of be there with them to experience the release of whatever pain that may have been.

[00:39:57] And I think to see that has really changed me in a manner that I didn't anticipate, but I'm truly grateful for it.

[00:40:07] And so that's why I'm so passionate about getting personal sleep therapy into the world, because it's more than just putting people to sleep.

[00:40:17] There's a spiritual connection that is involved in allowing people to have rested, restorative sleep.

[00:40:26] Well, and if there is something that you touched upon here, it's like the spiritual connection and everybody takes it.

[00:40:37] It could be very emotional.

[00:40:39] And part of it is because, you know, these people probably never had that kind of sleep.

[00:40:45] And when they have it, it just hits them that, wow, this is possible.

[00:40:50] Yeah.

[00:40:50] And this is why I feel like more than anything, sleep is transformational.

[00:40:57] Right.

[00:40:57] This is why we are building this show here so that we can spread more awareness and people can lead more transformational life with the power of sleep.

[00:41:10] And I couldn't be more excited for the first episode that we have recorded.

[00:41:16] Yeah.

[00:41:16] This is great.

[00:41:18] And Nairi, what can people expect in episodes to come?

[00:41:23] What are, what, how are you, what knowledge you're going to share?

[00:41:28] Oh, I'm so excited.

[00:41:29] So, you know, and I just really, really want to hone on like what you said about transformational.

[00:41:34] That is a perfect word.

[00:41:35] That is absolutely a perfect word for sleep.

[00:41:38] It is transforming, even from night and day, whether you have problems with sleep or not.

[00:41:41] You are a different person.

[00:41:43] You had a bad day.

[00:41:44] Let me lay down and go to sleep.

[00:41:45] You know, I, I argue with my partner, like, you know, let me lay down and go to sleep.

[00:41:48] You know, I have to make a decision.

[00:41:49] Let me sleep.

[00:41:50] Like, you know, it's very, very, like how transformational sleep is.

[00:41:55] So, you know, for in episodes to come, I look forward to giving more information, educating people on the benefits of sleep and rest.

[00:42:05] Ways to go about doing that.

[00:42:08] Advocating for sleep.

[00:42:09] Like, I am going to be that person.

[00:42:10] Like, I want to release the sleep shame that's associated with, with society.

[00:42:15] Like, we've got to allow, I have a whole nother campaign.

[00:42:18] Pretty girl, girls snore.

[00:42:20] Okay.

[00:42:20] Let's talk about that.

[00:42:22] Like, you have a girlfriend.

[00:42:23] Sleep divorce is real.

[00:42:24] You know, these are all things that nobody's talking about.

[00:42:28] People have ended relationships over sleeping and snoring and sleep apnea.

[00:42:33] You know, it's not their fault.

[00:42:34] You don't know what you do at night.

[00:42:35] I have had patients who get hurt at night because they, they have a REM sleep and they, they move and they hit their partners.

[00:42:43] You know, let's talk about getting the kids out the bed and when that's inappropriate.

[00:42:47] Let's talk about the animals.

[00:42:49] You know, let's talk about, you know, there's just so much, you know, sleep affects every single life form on earth.

[00:42:55] I'm sure we will have plenty to talk about in the episodes they come.

[00:43:00] Well, you heard it folks.

[00:43:02] And you can find us everywhere on all major podcast networks, Apple, Spotify.

[00:43:09] We, you can go to our show's website directly and we will put everything in show notes here.

[00:43:14] We will also be syndicating it through everything through top health media on social, on our YouTube.

[00:43:20] YouTube and watch us or come us and listen to wherever you can for the next episode.

[00:43:27] Thank you.

[00:43:27] Thank you so much.

[00:43:29] I'll talk to you later.

[00:43:30] Stay rested.